Yesterday Osama Bin Laden came out with a new tape on Al-Jazeera, threatening the United States.
Typically, the Left has little to say about Al Qaeda’s threats or beheadings, and instead pounces on the “alien-making rhetoric” of the Right.
That’s why I’m so pleased with the latest statement from John Kerry: “They are barbarians.”
Of course, Kerry also reprised his BS about Tora Bora: “[President Bush] didn’t choose to use American forces to hunt down Osama bin Laden. He outsourced the job.” But that doesn’t bother me too much, given that Gen. Tommy Franks torpedoed that lie nearly two weeks ago, after the first dozen times Kerry repeated it.
For now, I will ignore that and relish his simple “barbarians” quote above. By saying that, Kerry corroborates with President Bush, Colin Powell and Jonah Goldberg.
Let’s review what the Left has to say about that, shall we? The following comes from the comments on that last link, part of fishkite’s Geneva Watch series:
the barbarians? they haven’t existed since the roman empire…“Anonymous”
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What a relief that our enemies don’t exist!
Oh, wait…
bar*bar*i*an: “A fierce, brutal, or cruel person. A cruel, savage, brutal man; one destitute of pity or humanity.”
“Jonah”
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dear jonah,
your namesake had the same problem with us vs. them.
if you’re going to be so general in your definitions, we are all barbarians.
“Anonymous”
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My definition is definitely either too liberal or too strict, that’s for sure. Heck, maybe it’s both!
“Jonah”
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i think it’s probably better just to avoid the “barbarian” language altogether. way too many times, for way too many years, we westerners have fallen prey to our own alien-making rhetoric. just like in that def above, it starts to beg the question of what “human” means, and that’s nothing if not a giant cesspool of a question to beg.
“Anonymous”
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I think it’s probably better not to equate terrorists with “all” humanity, especially if all you can provide to back up that idea is a photograph of a frightened terrorist surrounded by restrained dogs.
Or you should at least have the balls to sign your name when you do it.
“Jonah”
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i think it’s even better not to assume that everyone has balls. Your mother never had any. Why do you think I do? Call me A. You’ll never meet me Jonah, so stop worrying about me, and pay attention to your own argument. You show yourself more and more like your namesake every day.
I made no such equation, although every person, from Jeffrey Dahmer to Mother Theresa, is part of “all” humanity. I suspect there is no single representative figure. The next photo in the series–as I know you are well aware–doesn’t show the dogs to be restrained. taken only a few minutes after that one, it shows the same naked man, bleeding. why are you so quick to dismiss a man’s humanity? “We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal”–that self-evidence is prior to all laws and politics. It is the assumption on which our country is built. Why are you so eager to throw it away? Because “they threw it away first”? Well, that’s a terrible argument: it makes you no better than they are. Do you assert that the American system and democracy and freedom is the best system of government? Then when you throw your belief in that system away because it is inconvenient, because it gets in the way of discovering the terrorists, then you attest to the world that it is not worth believing in. Pragmatism has not accomplished what you want it to accomplish. It has spread no gospel of democracy. It has spread instead fear and trembling.
“Anonymous”
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I keep forgetting which category Mother Theresa fits in… fierce, brutal, or cruel.
Do you remember, A?
“S.”
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Mother Theresa could be brutally honest, if that counts.
But the question of barbarism usually boils down to one of humanity/non-humanity. (Sometimes it’s one of civilization/non-civilization.)
Some might argue, then, that Mother Theresa was less-than human because she was celibate and refused to embrace as her own the whole of human experience.
I wouldn’t say that, myself. I’d rather say that the entire scope of human action–from the awfully selfish to the beautifully selfless–is just that, human.
“Anonymous”
As the discussion continues, the commenters’ identities are revealed:
But it helps me to think of it this way:what we call “barbarians,” someone else calls “infidels,” and in the end, on both sides, all it means is that nobody cares to really listen to what anybody else is actually saying.
we all have our ways of writing off everybody that’s not us. i don’t know how to get around it or beyond it. But i do know that reaching back to categorizations of civilized/uncivilized have never helped accomplish anything but pride and hatred in the past, and it probably won’t help accomplish anything now, either.
“Anonymous”
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Wrong again, A.
I do listen to what they are saying. It is impossible to listen and not conclude that they are barbarians.
Here’s a sample from the Zarqawi Letter:
“[Americans], as you know, are the most cowardly of GodÂ’s creatures. They are an easy quarry, praise be to God. We ask God to enable us to kill and capture them to sow panic among those behind them and to trade them for our detained shaykhs and brothers.”
The Iraqi people agree with my view: “they are not prisoners of war, they are criminals; they are killers.”
You folks on the far left are the ones who are deaf and ignorant. We’re at war with savage terrorists and all you can do is “panic” and piss your pants over a few prison photos.
You merit yourself as “anti-war” but you are only anti-American and anti-Bush. When did you link to photos of Nick Berg or Daniel Pearl? Where is your outrage over Paul Johnson’s bloody demise? When have you cited any wrongdoing by any government but your own? When did you protest Clinton’s bombing campaigns?
The hyprocrisy is unparalleled.
On top of that, you don’t have the balls to sign your name. It’s no wonder the terrorists think we’re cowards.
“Jonah”
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is it so difficult to reserve your outrage and anger and direct it toward Al-Qaida-on-the-peninsula rather than to “barbarians” and “savages”? i fail to see what you gain by overgeneralizing in order to denounce people. What do you get when you say I am “the left”? From my vantage point, all I can see is that you just make your testicles swell like pinnochio’s nose. And it ain’t pretty.
jonah, you have more than enough rage for the world without me adding to it. i wager it comes from your too-swollen testicles. but just to ameliorate you–there, I signed my name.
i mean this question seriously. how is it wise to counter dogmatism and hatred with more dogmatism and hatred? i don’t ask it because i think that men who unconscionably murder innocent people are people who can be talked to. i ask it because they are not the ones who listen to rhetoric. others do, however, including their children, their neighbors, their coun
t
rymen. Those people are the ones we talk to; those people are the ones we convince. But we only convince them to hate if hate is all we can show.“my name”
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When Ninevah repented and God stood down, Jonah sulked. “He became angry,” reads the scripture. “He prayed to the Lord and said, ‘O Lord! Is not this what I said while I was still in my own country? That is why I fled to Tarshish at the beginning; for I knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love, and ready to relent from punishing. And now, O Lord, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live.”
And so Jonah showed that he cared more for the punishment of the wicked than he did for their repentance. More than that, Jonah revealed that he hated God’s forgiveness. Jonah fully understood the prophesies he spoke, but he hated their consequence because they revealed that his God was greater than he.
How cool is that?
“Anonymous”
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Here’s a recent article from TIME about a Soviet minder who seems to have been convinced, to use your term, by Reagan’s “evil empire” rhetoric.
“Jonah”
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is my term ‘evil empire’ or is it ‘rhetoric’?
“Anonymous”
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Oh how very clever, A.
Oh, wait…
You missed God’s command that Jonah “preach against” Nineveh because of its “wickedness.”
They were so “evil” that God was going to destroy them unless they turned from their wicked ways.
So when Jonah finally went, he used strong language, and Ninevah was… only “convinced” of Jonah’s hatred?
Nope. In fact, they repented.
And here you’re asking for him to watch his language… to refrain from such categorizations of people!
“Jonah”
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jonah, was your primary point to say that they repented?
because i said that already.
my point was primarily about jonah. that’s the point of the book, too.
“Anonymous”
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Your argument that calling them barbarians won’t accomplish anything is pointless, because NOTHING we do will accomplish anything, at least not in the way I believe you would define accomplishment. This is an enemy whose goal is not to convert us to its way of thinking; it’s goal is to kill us.
You can wring your hands all day long about how we are not properly kissing the rest of the world’s ass, but that doesn’t bring us closer to accomplishing anything, either.
And can someone explain to me why Greg is now “anonymous” and Mick is now “Jonah”?
Tom
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I can’t speak for grAg, but I can tell you that my use of “Jonah” was a convienient nickname for at least three reasons – 1. to lampoon his unsigned comment. 2. because he was commenting on a column by another Jonah. 3. because my middle name is Jonah, just like Greg’s middle name is Greg.
My last point, which he strategically claims to have missed, is this: let’s call a spade a spade.
I wonder what A. would have said if he was in Ninevah and heard Jonah “preach against” the people there.
I’m sure he would have said Jonah’s use of “categorizations” such as “evil” and “wicked” would not “accomplish anything.”
But he would’ve been wrong then, as he is now.
Mick
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I think I partially disagree with Tom, if I read him correctly in saying, “nothing we do will accomplish anything.”
I think it is POSSIBLE that we could defeat terrorism, in part, with the use of strategic, strong language.
It won’t work if we censor ourselves and try to pander to them, if we make every effort not to shame them.
It will only work if we do it Jonah’s way against the formerly wicked Ninevah, or Reagan’s way against the former Soviet Union.
A. thinks he can read my heart, and he thinks he finds rage and hatred there, like Jonah displayed after he successfully preached against Ninevah.
But I will be the first to rejoice when people in the Middle East finally rise up from the wickedness spread by terrorists and dictators there. I will rejoice in their liberty and humanity.
Until then, I will continue to preach against the barbarians who want to kill Americans and their own countrymen.
Anything less shows that we are weak, and that we can be defeated. If we adopt mealy-mouthed talk and refuse to distinguish between al-Zarqawi and Mother Teresa, the terrorism will continue.
Ninevah did not repent without the threat of destruction.
The Soviet Union did not fall without the threat of destruction.
Al Qaeda will not be defeated without the threat of destruction.
Mick
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But I will be the first to rejoice when people in the Middle East finally rise up from the wickedness spread by terrorists and dictators there. I will rejoice in their liberty and humanity.
Who wouldn’t? Why it is you thought I was saying anything less I don’t know. You’ve written to me as if I were speaking some gospel of powerlessness and weakness. But I’m not. Rather, I’ve been advocating for an ethic of power that does exactly what you want: calls a spade a spade. You wanted to say you were calling “a spade a spade.” OK, fine. But here’s the rub: you did it–and so did Jonah Goldberg, and so did George Bush and Colin Powell and the minister from Saudi Arabia–you did it with language that has traditionally used to diminish entire peoples. For 600 years “savage” has been in our vocabulary and has been used to refer to people who were less-than-human–not because they really acted that way, but because the people in power did not want to see Africans, or Native Americans, or Australian Aborigines as people. “Barbarian” has been used the same way for 500 years. So when you begin talking of “savages” and “barbarians” even NOW, it is no small step for someone else to hear you speaking of all Arabs.
Of course, all Arabs are not who we fight. Are they?
“Anonymous”
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So then, let’s single out the bastards, not only in our actions, but also in our language.
Tom, I said exactly the same as you here: how is it wise to counter dogmatism and hatred with more dogmatism and hatred? i don’t ask it because i think that men who unconscionably murder innocent people are people who can be talked to. i ask it because they are not the ones who listen to rhetoric. others do, however, including their children, their neighbors, their countrymen. Those people are the ones we talk to; those people are the ones we convince. But we only convince them to hate if hate is all we can show. The only differnece is you point out who “will not listen,” while I point out who will. I think it’s important to face the world openly than to shake our fists in anger.
“Anonymous”
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Finally, that is not to say that America cannot show its power, nor is it to say that it shouldn’t. After all, who doesn’t know that America is powerful?
But Ronald Reagan, during his 2nd term of office, actually reduced nuclear weapons. And he listened to Mikhail Gorbachev. You think the iron fist banging on the iron curtain was what it took to destroy the USSR. I think it’s too simple to say that was all it took. And Reagan did too. When he went to Moscow, he walked the streets and he waved and met the people because he loved them–he knew that Russians were not the same as the Soviet state, and he understood that they were worth his love. He did not talk down to them, nor did he diminish them by calling the Russians anything but themselves. Idolize RR fine, but know who it is that you’re idolizing: he wasn’t nearly as dogmatic as you are imagining him to have been.
“Anonymous”
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finally, i don’t know who this greg character is.i do know that it’s worth remaining anonymous if it bugs you so much.
“Anonymous”
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fyi,
here are two oxford english dictionary entries for barbarian and for savage. they will be active for three days. any words that are as broadly-defined as these have been used for too many purposes to ever be understood to have narrow reference.
In case I wasn’t clear enough above, I’ll say one more time. I maintain TO call anything “savage” or “barbarian” is not to “call a spade a spade.” THe words are too broad–they explode in meaning outward. So why not write, instead, “Al Qaida of Arabia,” rather than “those savages”? Why is it difficult to single out those who are responsible for unconscionable crimes? Speak of them as individuals, and the whole weight of their crimes will beat down upon their heads.
“Anonymous”
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“i don’t know who this greg character is.” – Anonymous
Let me help you out. He’s the character who writes like you, about the same subjects, on the same website, from the same IP addresses.
“jonah, was your primary point to say that they repented? becaue i said that already.” – Anonymous | IP: 216.248.123.32
“well, sure, if you make the statement a caption to the image, then it’s plenty explainable.” – greg | IP: 216.248.123.32
You should really meet greg, A. You two make a perfect match.
Mick
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My “nothing we do will accomplish anything” comment was meant in the context of accomplishing anything with the people who are lopping off heads. No amount of ass-kissing or appeasement will change their minds.
I was not talking about the general population of the Middle East–why is it that when we refer to a barbarian as a barbarian, it is assumed by people like Gregonymous that we are using that term to generalize an entire population? I think it is pretty clear to anyone that someone [who] cuts off a civilian’s head is, in fact, a barbarian, savage, or whatever you want to call it.
Wringing your hands about the etymology of the word or how it has been historically misused does not change the intent that was in my mind when I used it. In fact, I would wager that the majority of the world does not consider how a word might have been misused in the 15th century in order to assign meaning to someone using it today; that is primarily done by elitist academians with nothing better to do.
Tom
As you can probably guess, I thoroughly enjoy that exchange, and having GrAg’s candidate (at least, the candidate I assume he voted for) on record saying the same thing makes it that much better!